Houdini Month : The Steve Baker Interview

Mr.Escape & the Magic Detective Interview

 At the time of this interview, The Magic Detective Blog did not yet exist. I did have my own magic history blog that I put a lot of content on however, but this interview never appeared on there or anywhere. Steve Baker wanted me to write his life story, and I told him I didn't think I was quite qualified, as I had never done that, and didn't know near enough. So just to test the waters a bit, I began to do interviews and take notes, tons of notes. 

I had seen Steve Baker on TV when I was a kid doing his escapes. I did see him do the Water Torture Cell and hanging strait jacket escapes on TV. He was the only working escape artist I ever saw on TV for a long time and he was on TV a lot! 

Carnegie: Steve, I'd like to ask you a few questions about your career. First off, how did you get your name?

Steve: My parents gave it to me. Oh, you mean Mr. Escape. That was not my original stage name. At the time when I made my National debut, it was Feb 22, 1967 and I was going to recreate Houdini's Upside Down Strait Jacket Escape from the Tribune Tower building on Oakland CA. This was to promote a show I was doing in town, a fund raiser for a church.  I don't think anyone anticipated the event would turn out so great. The initial estimates were 10,000 people attended my escape. But later I heard it was as many as 20,000.  Houdini, had done the escape many years before and I was hoping to beat his time. Oh, you want to know the name I went by. I was using the stage name 'The Great Gerhardt'. It was a family name that I had used for a while but most of the newspapers referred to me as Steve Baker, so after this Tribune Tower Escape I went with just Steve Baker until...

Carnegie: Until you switched to all escapes?

Steve: No. It was a few years before I went all escapes. The show I had in February had comedy magic and illusions. Yes, I did illusions too. I loved the comedy magic, and I began to do Mentalism, so those became my bread and butter. I also did close-up magic. But right after Tribune Tower, I went with Steve Baker, 'The World's Most Neurotic Magician'.  In May 1967, I had a big show at the Oakland Auditorium Theatre.  I was doing a show of Mirth, Magic & Mayhem with the Master of Magic and Escape. Add to that the Most Neurotic Magician title and you can see I had not yet figured out my direction. I wanted to do everything. But then one day, I was reading the Steranko issue of Genii Magazine, the one on escapes, and he mentions the name 'Mr.Escape'. I asked if I could use it. After that it became my moniker for my Escape work. I also had another name, or maybe more of what you might call a tag-line, The Man Who Outdid Houdini.

Carnegie: WHAT???? I did not know about this. How did that come about?

Steve: After the Tribune Tower, it sort of just happened. The newspapers wrote articles about how I was going to try and beat Houdini's time with my straitjacket escape. One of the journalists even called his friends in Vegas to get their take. Folks like comedian Buddy Hackett and Shecky Greene threw in their two cents. No one thought I'd be able to do it. But after it was over, and I successfully beat Houdini's time, they all wanted to know what I was going to do next to beat Houdini. So I became The Man Who Outdid Houdini. I really was both, 'The World's Most Neurotic Magician' when I did comedy and 'The Man Who Outdid Houdini' when I was doing escapes and escape promotions.

Carnegie: Obviously, the Tribune Tower was a promotion, can you give me an idea of another escape promotion you did?

Steve: Many. A great deal of my shows, certainly bigger venue shows, I tried to tie in an escape. The May 1967 show for the Oakland Auditorium Theatre had a publicity escape. That was when I did the Cannon Escape. Houdini had done a cannon escape in England and I wanted to outdo all of his escapes, or as many as I could, so I thought the Cannon escape would work. The cannon we used weighed 3000 lbs and was loaded with 2.5 pounds of black powder. No cannon ball though. The black powder alone could blow the door off a bank safe. Wait till you hear what I did at the show!

Carnegie: Did you do the Cannon Escape again at the show?

Steve: The same man who donated the use of the Cannon, donated the use of a Howitzer, so I was strapped to that. By the way, I did the Cannon Escape numerous times in my career. After my 1967 performance, I gave it the name 'The Human Target', and tried not to mention Houdini, but his name always came up.

Carnegie: Why am I just hearing about this now? This isn't anywhere in the magic literature.

Steve: I was working for the public, not magicians. I have all of my press clippings with articles on all the escapes I did. I think the magic world would be surprised by the amount of things I've done.

Carnegie: Can you give me some examples of your Houdini Escapes? I know of The Water Torture Cell, I saw that a couple times on TV.  What other escapes did you do that were trying to beat Houdini?

Steve: The early escapes included: safes, cement chambers, handcuffs, jail cells, even an early

version of the water torture. Not every early escape tied to Houdini, but whenever I could tie it in, I did. For my first Water Torture, I actually had my legs weighted down in the tank of water so that it would be impossible to lift myself up. A few years later, when the Dick Clark people came to me about doing the Water Torture Cell, I had Johnny Gaughan build it and I changed it, so that I would be chained to the bottom of the tank hanging by my ankles. It looked more like Houdini's tank to start with, but Houdini was never chained to the bottom. That was my twist. You might not know this, but I never did the Water Torture the same way twice.

Carnegie: I don't understand. You either get out or you don't get out. What other ways are there?

Steve: I meant, on TV I never did the escape the same way twice on TV. Yes, I always freed myself, but on Dick Clark, I pulled my feet out but was still stuck underwater. On another show, I had my hands free but couldn't get my feet out. Then there was the HBO Special, where Tony Curtis was M.C. and nearly panicked while I did the Water Torture Cell.

Carnegie: Tony Curtis, wow. The first motion picture Houdini as MC of your show, that's wild.  I remember that special. It opened with the Water Torture Cell! And the ads for the show featured your Death Race Escape. I guess by the time of the HBO Special you were done outdoing Houdini?

Steve: Yes, I was well established by the HBO Special. But prior to that I was going through all the Houdini books of the time, trying to determine the best escapes he did in order to duplicate them and hopefully beat his time. I had conquered straitjackets, cannons, the Water Torture Cell, packing boxes, underwater escapes, and I even had a Milk Can made. But in 1969, I almost stumbled when I met Milbourne Christopher. He had recently published the book,
Houdini: The Untold Story and was sort of fanatical when it came to Houdini. He even presented shows where he recreated Houdini's act. He had made a pretty good name for himself on TV back in the 1950s. I met Mr. Christopher at a day long event called The Magic Extravaganza which was sponsored by the Oakland Magic Circle. We did not get along at first. In the two years since my National debut, I had not only outdone Houdini as often as I could, I also adopted his attitude and bravado. It got me in trouble more than I care to recall, but it also set me apart from rank amateurs and even bothered a lot of professional magicians. Christopher challenged me to escape from an actual pair of Houdini's handcuffs. It was then that I worried the most. If I did not get out, all I had done before would be for not. Plus, this was being presented in front of magicians and the lay public so not getting out would be the ultimate in humiliation. But thankfully, I did free myself. And Milbourne and I became fast friends afterward. He even personally autographed a copy of his book to me.

Carnegie: Steve you mentioned jail escapes. What jails did you escape from?

Steve: Oh, there were several. Meridian Jail in Idaho, there was a Jail in Australia, though they spelled it Gaol. I lived in Boise, so I found a number of old jails throughout Idaho. There were jails in Montana, Washington State and Oregon. For a long time I was very West Coast based. As my TV appearances grew, my territory grew. I eventually covered all 50 states, Canada, and into Europe, China and Australia.

Carnegie: So you did every escape of Houdinis? Like the Sea Monster Escape, Escaping from a Giant Football, Escape From a Paperbag, etc. ?

Steve: No, I just did his major escapes, the one's he was most well known for. I had hoped to get to a point where I would not be compared to Houdini anymore because I had outdone him. In truth, my outdoing him was for publicity, it gave a good hook for the newspapers to promote my escapes.  I usually tried to beat Houdini's time, or give the escape a different twist so it seemed I was making it more dangerous than Houdini. Over time, I moved beyond Houdini's escapes and created my own signature escapes like The Coffin of Death, Death Race, Trial by Fire and others. If I had to do it all over again, I might have avoided the comparison, though I guess it just comes with the territory.  You can escape like Houdini, but there is no escaping HOUDINI.


I'd like to point out that this was only a tiny portion of the many interviews I had with Steve. I might not have been the best interviewer 17 years ago, but Steve more than elaborated when I asked him questions. I have removed some content. For example, he shared the secret to his Meridian Jail escape (and no it was not the Hattie Mooser/Houdini method, lol).   All of the above covers from around 1967, to the early 1970s. By the time he was on Dick Clark LIVE Wednesday, he had already dropped the 'The Man Who Outdid Houdini' moniker, and would go on to be a true TV Celebrity of the 1970s and into the 1980s.  I love the last line of the interview, I think that sums it up perfectly, 'You Can Escape Like Houdini, but there is No Escaping HOUDINI.'

Houdini & Queen Victoria's Dress

I sure named this blog correctly when I called it, TheMagicDetective. I never know what rabbit hole I'm going to have to go down and how much searching and detective work I'll need to do. As my fellow Houdini bloggers know, the slightest thought can take you places you never expected. Today, we look at Queen Victoria, specifically, her dress.

Queen Victoria reigned over the British Empire for 64 years. She died, coincidentally enough on Bess Houdini's Birthday Jan 22, 1901. According to the Kellock biography, Houdini His Life Story, Houdini, who was in London at the time, saw a dress, designed for Queen Victoria, in a shop window. The Queen died before taking possession of the dress however.  Houdini wanted the dress for his mother, who he thought was the same size as the Queen. (really? I don't think so, she had a size 43 waist!) He went into the shop and at first the shop keeper did not want to sell the dress. According to the Kellock biography, "one did not sell her Majesty's relics." But Houdini was persistent and explained the dress would be for his mother. The shop keeper eventually agreed to sell the dress on the condition that it would never be worn by anyone in Great Britain. Kellock says the dress sold for 50 pounds, though the Christopher book, Houdini-The Untold Story has it at 30 pounds, and the newest book by Derek Tait, The Great Houdini His British Tours, also has the dress listed at 30 pounds. Christopher adds this was approx. $150 (at least in 1969).

For a long time I thought this story was simply a fable. It sounds like something Houdini might make up. But the story is true.

I believe Cecilia Weiss is wearing the dress in the photo to the left. This picture appeared on the
November 1902 issue of Mahatma Magazine on the cover. Within the text it reads "this photograph was taken in Essen Ruhr, Germany, in May 1901, during the visit of Houdini's mother, who came all the way from America to share the triumphs of her son." That makes this the precise time when Houdini would have given the dress to his mother.

(Library of Congress photo)

Pat Culliton, in his fine book, Houdini The Key, has a photo that he believes could be the dress. And it's similar to this one, at least in black and white it looks similar but it's not the same dress. The one similarity is that Cecilia is wearing the circular brooch around her neck with Houdini's picture in it, in both photos.

The only reason I don't think it's the dress is because it appears to be a little too stylish for the Queen. She was known to wear rather drab styles at this point in her life.

One of the curiosities I had about the dress was the color. I imagined a midnight blue or even deep purple perhaps. Then I found out this bit of information. When Prince Albert died in 1861, Queen Victoria went into mourning and wore black clothing. She continued to wear only black until the day she died. There were dresses that contained accents of white, so again, it makes Pat's suggestion still plausible. The photo at the top of the page was a dress for her Diamond Jubilee and it contains a great deal of white, more than is usually seen in her dresses, but this was also for a special occasion.

From the book, Houdini A Mind In Chains

Queen Victoria was a big woman, Cecilia Weiss was not. There is another photo of the dress that I think is the one, and you'll notice the amount of extra fabric. Now, I did read that Bess helped to alter the dress to fit Houdini's mother. IF you look at the photo to the left, it's the same dress that is in the photo from the cover of Mahatma. You can tell the dress has lots of extra fabric, but also fits Cecilia around the waist. I think that is Queen Victoria's dress! (ed.note: This photo comes from Houdini: A Mind In Chains, and the caption reads "Queen Victoria's Dress, Essen, Germany 1901" so that confirms it!*)

This now brings me to the whole reason I started this quest. I wanted to know, a. if the story was true, then b.  where was the dress today. If it truly was Queen Victoria's dress then it must have survived. I wondered if Bess got it. In the movie, The Great Houdini's with Paul Michael Glaser and Sally Struthers, Harry asks Bess what she wants, and she replies quite emphatically, "Queen Victoria's Dress!" But I don't think this moment actually occurred in real life due to the next bit of information.

This information came from Harry Hardeen to Jon Oliver to John Hinson, then to me. So I'd say it's pretty accurate. The location of the dress today....Cecilia Weiss was buried in Queen Victoria's dress.
And to add just one more bit of trivia, Cecilia was also buried with a pair of slippers that Houdini purchased in Bremen. When Houdini was leaving on July 8th for Europe, his mother asked him 'to bring back a pair of the warm woolen house slippers'. This according to HOUDINI His Life Story by Harold Kellock.  Houdini stopped on his return voyage to specifically pick up the slippers and be sure she was buried with them.


*Special thanks to John Cox for helping me find the final photo of the dress. Also, thanks to Joe Notoro who first posted this image on his blog, The caption, confirmed what I was thinking!!! Also thank you to John Hinson and Jon Oliver for getting me the info on the final destination of the dress!

Houdini - An Escape Revelation

Five years ago, I wrote an article about two of Houdini's friends. One of whom, may or may not been a secret girlfriend. Those friends were Hattie and Minnie Mooser. The only Houdini biography that mentions them is the Kalush biography, at least as far as I can find. There had been a couple newspaper articles on the sisters back in the 1960s. But there was also a person who met and spoke at length with Hattie and Minnie. That person was none other than my friend Steve Baker. He met them in 1967 and listened to them share story after story about their show business friends. But they spoke most often of Houdini. And in the course of the conversation, Hattie revealed something to Steve about Houdini's methods on jail escapes. She swore him to secrecy. And he kept that secret, until 2000, when he told me. But he swore me to secrecy. I was not allowed to say anything while he was alive, and I have never told a soul...until now.

Before I get to that though, I should tell you how they met. According to the sisters, they met Houdini through their brother Leon who was a theatrical agent. They claimed that it was the brother who 'discovered' Houdini. That we know is not accurate, but its possible he could have helped get Houdini booked in the early days. One thing is certain, it's clear the Moosers did know the Houdinis.  There is a 1919 photo of Minnie Mooser, that recently went up for auction. You can see it here.

Hattie claimed to worked as an assistant and filled in for Bess during the Metamorphosis. And Hattie was with Bess watching Houdini's 1923 hanging straitjacket escape from the Tribune Tower building in Oakland. This, according to the Oakland Tribune Newspaper, was when Hardeen had young boys run through the crowd of 20,000 spectators handing out pamphlets advertising HIS (Hardeen's) appearance at the Pantages Theatre, while Houdini hung upside down. A well known story and this is where it happened.

The 1923 Hanging Strait Jacket Escape by Houdini was apparently his second. He first did the escape, from the same building, the Tribune Tower on Nov 22, 1915. According to the Oakland Tribune paper, they were having trouble with the hoist and the rope twisted and Houdini, hanging upside down in the straitjacket was slammed head first into the second story cornice. He was apparently unconscious, or appeared to be. But by the time he reached the 8th floor, he began his escape. He did free himself, but on the way down, the rope got hung up and Houdini remained hanging for a very long time. His face and lips turning colors from hanging so long. Eventually, he was lowered and all was well.

NOW for the big revelation.  Hattie Mooser described a method that Houdini used to hide a key/tools for picking locks during Houdini's jail escapes. I have read other books that had 'ideas and theories', which may or may not have been accurate on how Houdini escaped from jails. Things such as a capsule containing tools he swallowed and later regurgitated, or a small bag of tools that attached discretely to the bed or chair within a cell. I have no doubt that Houdini used multiple methods depending upon the cell and various other factors. But this method described by Hattie Mooser was new to me and struck me as being very possible because it frankly made sense. She claimed he used clay and embalmers putty. The key/tool rested against his skin, then the putty was applied over that. The area, well, let's just say near a very private area, would be hidden from view because of where it was, but it would also be hidden during any sort of frisking. This was before metal detectors so I could see the potential for success. It's quite ingenious. Did he use this all the time, doubtful. But according to Hattie, it was used by Houdini for sure.

The other sister Minnie made a different claim regarding Houdini, which I thought was interesting. In her own words, "Yes, Houdini gave his wife Bess a word to use to call back his spirit, but he did it to prove it could not be done. The truth is that Houdini spent his life exposing spiritualism." Hattie added, "The whole idea of spiritualism is false. Houdini wanted to expose that fraud for what it was worth."

So, I guess all of these Houdini Seances can stop because he has no intention of coming back, LOL!